From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Nov 10 07:56 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA039437809; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 07:56:49 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA07330; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 07:56:48 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA016287803; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 07:56:43 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id GAA16803; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 06:52:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 96 8:52:31 CST From: Brad Wright To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: another bit of folklore Message-Id: Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R While getting ready for church, I just remembered another great Mormonism & science myth I heard at least twice growing up: Physicians have noticed that the weight of a person drops slightly (maybe an oz.) at death (the implication being that a person's spirit, made of refined matter, weighs some finite amount). Has anyone else heard this one? I sincerely believed it as a kid; needless to say, I'm now rather skeptical, although I still believe in a body-spirit dualism. Brad Wright Brad Wright asked about the notion of the weight of a body dropping a small amount when the spirit leaves: > Has anyone else heard this one? Yes! We even had a discussion about this back in oct 1994 on this group. We were talking about (spiritual?) "dark matter" in the universe and Steeve Jones (the one that wrote the paper in our FAQ) hypothesized: perhaps spirits have sufficient mass that they could be detected by weighing, e.g., as an animal is euthenized. Then Paul Black responded with this: > Years ago I saw a film which told about an experiment. I believe it > took place in the late 1800's or early 1900's in France. > A scientist had a friend or associate that was dying. When there > were only a few hours left, the dying man was laid on a table > mounted on sensitive scales. As time passed the scales indicated a > small, gradual weight loss. But when the man died, the scales > showed an immediate, significant weight loss. I think it was about > 3 ounces. > I, too, would like to see similar experiments done. For example, > perhaps the weight loss was water vapor loss. A sealed chamber > could have enough oxygen for enough time, but insure that no normal > matter was lost. I remembered seeing something along these lines some time long ago (like "Believe it or not"?). We had some real discussion about actually taking the initiative to do such an experiment but I think the final conclusion was that no one had sufficient faith that it would produce any significant results to motivate us to put for the effort. I'd bet experiments like this have been done many times and if they ever did produce results they would be very famous and people would be measuring them all the time and doing things like using this as an indicator of death and such. I have much more faith in the scientific discovery of the conscious spirit as a process of the brain as described in Crick's (Nobel prize for discovery of DNA) book _The Astonishing Hypothesis_. There certainly is a lot of faith driving lots of scientific effort in every conceivable field of science and philosophy relating to this in this direction. He argues we are at the same point with respect to the discovery of consciousness as we were just before this discovery of DNA when the prevailing attitude was that there was some kind of mysterious "life force". Just as this "life force" turned out to be DNA, surely there is something at least as powerfully understandable and phenomenally beautiful that is our feelings or conscious spirit. I think this will be the most significant and powerful discovery made to date by mankind. Does anyone think we should include some of this information and a few of our opinions in our FAQ? Brent Allsop From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Nov 10 14:41 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA040522098; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 14:41:38 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA10275; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 14:41:38 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA272182092; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 14:41:32 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id NAA27385; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 13:37:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961110213639.0075ae38@mail.clarityconnect.com> X-Sender: boruch@mail.clarityconnect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:36:39 -0500 To: eyring-l@netcom.com From: David Boruchowitz Subject: Re: another bit of folklore Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R At 08:52 AM 10-11-96 CST, you wrote: >While getting ready for church, I just remembered another great Mormonism & >science myth I heard at least twice growing up: Physicians have noticed that >the weight of a person drops slightly (maybe an oz.) at death (the >implication being that a person's spirit, made of refined matter, weighs some >finite amount). > >Has anyone else heard this one? I sincerely believed it as a kid; needless >to say, I'm now rather skeptical, although I still believe in a body-spirit >dualism. > >Brad Wright Well, I have heard that some people claim this (before I joined the Church). It seems to me that even if there is empirical evidence to support the weight loss claim, it could easily be accounted for by the total loss of muscle tone, causing an absolute emptying of the lungs as well as other excretions of matter. Anyone know? David. From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Nov 10 19:25 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA041429151; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 19:25:51 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA10889; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 19:25:51 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA189709145; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 19:25:45 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id SAA05446; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 18:21:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 96 20:17:38 CST From: Brad Wright To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: another bit of folklore In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:36:39 -0500 Message-Id: Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R Actually, I'm not sure how a loss of muscle tone or evacuation of the bowels could account for weight loss if the entire body is resting on a scale. A sudden, discrete drop in weight at the moment of death would probably be hard to explain, especially if it were observed in a large sample of patients. However, I strongly doubt that anyone has conducted such a study, and that such a study would show a consistent, measureable loss of mass at death. Of course, I could be wrong. This is one of the few bits of folklore that can actually be tested. Brad From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Nov 10 22:41 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA042120903; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 22:41:43 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA11420; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 22:41:42 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA045210895; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 22:41:36 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id VAA09443; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 21:31:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 23:02:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Shawn L. Young" To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: another bit of folklore In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R Hi, My name is Shawn Young, I don't think that I have ever posted to this newsgroup before, but thought I'd put my two cents in. I remember seeing a short segment about this on a preview for a tabloid type TV show several years ago. However, it had no credability in my mind and I don't think I actually watched the show. Of course there was no connection with the church there. Shawn Young ---- Shawn L. Young Phone: (603) 646-3969 Department of Physics and Astronomy fax : (603) 646-1446 HB 6127 Dartmouth College Hanover, NH 03755-3528 shawn.young@dartmouth.edu On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Brad Wright wrote: > Actually, I'm not sure how a loss of muscle tone or evacuation of the bowels > could account for weight loss if the entire body is resting on a scale. A > sudden, discrete drop in weight at the moment of death would probably be hard > to explain, especially if it were observed in a large sample of patients. > However, I strongly doubt that anyone has conducted such a study, and that > such a study would show a consistent, measureable loss of mass at death. Of > course, I could be wrong. This is one of the few bits of folklore that can > actually be tested. > > Brad > From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Mon Nov 11 02:03 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA042793019; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 02:03:39 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA12434; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 02:03:38 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA185103012; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 02:03:32 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id AAA13768; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:58:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert J. Woolley" To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: another bit of folklore Message-Id: <32869a9112b5812@mhub0.tc.umn.edu> Date: Sun, 10 Nov 96 21:16:33 -0600 Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R In message writes: This is one of the few bits of folklore that can > actually be tested. Not easily. It's notoriously difficult to predict when death is imminent within minutes, and you wouldn't want to leave dying people lying on scales for very long. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Woolley St. Paul, Minnesota "Two vast things, each wondrous in itself, contribute to make this book a prodigy--the author's industry and her ignorance. Once can only be so intricately wrong by deep study and long effort.... The result has an eerie perfection, as if all the world's greatest builders had agreed to rear, with infinite skill, the world's ugliest building." --Garry Wills, on Fawn Brodie's psychobiography of Thomas Jefferson From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Mon Nov 11 04:14 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA043040873; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 04:14:33 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA16105; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 04:14:33 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA235880866; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 04:14:26 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id DAA16297; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 03:08:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert J. Woolley" To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: another bit of folklore Message-Id: <3286c85e12b5367@mhub0.tc.umn.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 00:31:58 -0600 Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R In message <1.5.4.32.19961111030252.009635e8@mail.clarityconnect.com> writes: > > I was thinking mainly that a infintesimal weight loss could occur from the > total expulsion of air from the lungs, something that doesn't normally > happen between breaths, that's all. If someone died on an analytical > balance, would that be true? Only in a vacuum. In the atmosphere, although you technically lose mass by fully exhaling, because we're in a sea of air, your weight as measured on a scale doesn't change regardless of how much air is in your lungs. Besides, full expiration beyond what you normally expel with each breath takes positive muscular energy, which is a little difficult after you die. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Woolley St. Paul, Minnesota "Two vast things, each wondrous in itself, contribute to make this book a prodigy--the author's industry and her ignorance. Once can only be so intricately wrong by deep study and long effort.... The result has an eerie perfection, as if all the world's greatest builders had agreed to rear, with infinite skill, the world's ugliest building." --Garry Wills, on Fawn Brodie's psychobiography of Thomas Jefferson From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Mon Nov 11 04:37 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA043122227; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 04:37:07 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA16395; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 04:37:07 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA245122220; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 04:37:00 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id DAA16786; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 03:32:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 06:10:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199611111110.GAA13970@planetx.planetx.bloomu.edu> X-Sender: jgcouc@planetx.bloomu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: eyring-l@netcom.com From: Jack Couch Subject: Re: another bit of folklore Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R At 08:52 AM 11/10/96 CST, you wrote: >While getting ready for church, I just remembered another great Mormonism & >science myth I heard at least twice growing up: Physicians have noticed that >the weight of a person drops slightly (maybe an oz.) at death (the >implication being that a person's spirit, made of refined matter, weighs some >finite amount). > >Has anyone else heard this one? I sincerely believed it as a kid; needless >to say, I'm now rather skeptical, although I still believe in a body-spirit >dualism. > >Brad Wright > I certainly do remember hearing this--usually whipped out and quoted as proof of some gospel viewpoint or other. Jack From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Mon Nov 11 07:53 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA043624009; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:53:30 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA11578; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:53:29 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA131954003; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:53:23 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id GAA20975; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 06:48:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961111141613.00974ff8@mail.clarityconnect.com> X-Sender: boruch@mail.clarityconnect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:16:13 -0500 To: eyring-l@netcom.com From: David Boruchowitz Subject: Re: another bit of folklore Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R >> I was thinking mainly that a infintesimal weight loss could occur from the >> total expulsion of air from the lungs, something that doesn't normally >> happen between breaths, that's all. If someone died on an analytical >> balance, would that be true? > >Only in a vacuum. In the atmosphere, although you technically lose mass by fully >exhaling, because we're in a sea of air, your weight as measured on a scale >doesn't change regardless of how much air is in your lungs. Besides, full >expiration beyond what you normally expel with each breath takes positive >muscular energy, which is a little difficult after you die. Thanks! Drat, there goes another urban legend, town the sewer. ;-)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Mon Nov 11 13:13 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA049153198; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:13:18 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA15738; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:13:17 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA202623190; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:13:10 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id MAA28429; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:01:04 -0800 (PST) From: TheJZB@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:00:58 -0500 Message-Id: <961111150058_348197195@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Subject: Re: Weighing spirits (was Re: another bit of folklore) Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R Brent asks: > Does anyone think we should include some of this information > and a few of our opinions in our FAQ? Heck, yeah. Even though those posts have been on the Web, it would be polite to check with the authors to make sure they don't mind being part of the FAQ (but I presume you do that already and don't need reminding). But I think we should include all sorts of topics, even ones that are pseudoscience or quasiscience, provided that our commentary indicates that some of us view them as such. Janet From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Mon Nov 11 13:45 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA049515139; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:45:39 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA16003; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:45:35 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA041165128; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:45:29 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id MAA00170; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:32:00 -0800 (PST) X-UIDL: 847745209.001 From: jeffa@kurzweil.com (Jeff Adams) Message-Id: <9611111117.ZM2195@pepper.kurzweil.com> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 11:17:28 -0500 In-Reply-To: Brad Wright "another bit of folklore" (Nov 10, 8:52am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: another bit of folklore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R Brad Wright wrote: > While getting ready for church, I just remembered another great Mormonism & > science myth I heard at least twice growing up: Physicians have noticed that > the weight of a person drops slightly (maybe an oz.) at death (the > implication being that a person's spirit, made of refined matter, weighs some > finite amount). > > Has anyone else heard this one? I sincerely believed it as a kid; needless > to say, I'm now rather skeptical, although I still believe in a body-spirit > dualism. I've heard this, too. A search on the web yielded some messages previously passed around on stumpers-list, which I believe is a mailing list for research librarians to help each other find tough references. ================================================================================ From: IN%"D-LIEN@vm1.spcs.umn.edu" "Dennis Lien" 3-DEC-1993 12:00:32.23 To: IN%"dbarclay@lib.nmsu.edu" "Don Barclay", IN%"stumpers-list@CRF.CUIS.EDU" CC: Subj: Question: Weight of the Soul The experiment is, I think, apocryphal. Bergen Evans refers to it in his great book A NATURAL HISTORY OF NONSENSE (NY: Knopf, 1946) on p.132 thusly: ******* ((Some)) have claimed that dying men, at the very moment of their decease, have been placed on delicate scales that have recorded their mortuary degravitation. But these persons have never been able to specify in just what ghoulish laboratory this took place, or what private home was so interestingly equipped, or the names and addresses of the relatives who so commendably placed scientific and religious curiosity before sentimental concern for the patient's comfort. ********* I seem to spend a lot of time here describing books as "great" or "one of my favorites" or the like, but I would suggest that anyone who typically gets this kind of popular belief questions might want to keep this title in mind. (There is a sequel, THE SPOOR OF SPOOKS, also.) There have been a glut of DICTIONARY OF MISINFORMATION / STRAIGHT DOPE / etc. titles in recent years, but this almost-fifty year-old title is my favorite. Dennis Lien / U of Minnesota Libraries // d-lien@vm1.spcs.umn.edu ================================================================================ ================================================================================ From: IN%"PARTER@ECCLAB.MED.UTAH.EDU" "Patricia Arter" 3-DEC-1993 12:29:04.83 To: IN%"stumpers-list@CRF.CUIS.EDU" CC: Subj: % Weight of the soul I can't tell you who did the experiment or when, but I do remember seeing on television a report of the experiment where someone weighed the body at the time of death and noticed a rather consis- tent drop at death -- 28 ounces comes to mind, but I can't cite anything to prove it. The program MAY have been "60 Minutes" -- but I'm not sure. I saw this sometime between '86 and '89. Not much help, I know, but the experiment WAS run and reported on. Patricia Arter parter@ecclab.med.utah.edu ================================================================================ ================================================================================ From: IN%"knoxlib@ftknox-amedd.army.mil" "Medical Library" 3-DEC-1993 22:07:57.44 To: IN%"D-LIEN@vm1.spcs.umn.edu" "Dennis Lien", IN%"stumpers-list@CRF.CUIS.EDU" CC: Subj: % Re: Question: Weight of the Soul >The experiment is, I think, apocryphal. Bergen Evans refers to it in his >great book A NATURAL HISTORY OF NONSENSE (NY: Knopf, 1946) on p.132 thusly: > >((Some)) have claimed that dying men, at the very moment of their decease, hav e >been placed on delicate scales that have recorded their mortuary degravitation .. >But these persons have never been able to specify in just what ghoulish A search of NLM's MEDLINE & backfiles turned up little or nothing on this. I used combinations of MeSH's of death and religion, a search of the MeSH of death & title/abstract occurrence of the word soul(s), & a similar one truncating title/abs. of the words weigh: -- sum total? One *possibly* pseudo-relevant hit from 1968: Still JW The three levels of human life and death, the presumed location of the soul, and some of the implications for the social problems of abortion, birth control, and euthanasia. Med Ann Dist Columbia 1968 Jun;37(6):316-8 Obviously metaphysicians cannot be bothered to publish in the stick-in-the-mud journals of conventional medicine, but I present this for whatever it may be worth, with the note that it did help ease a more than somewhat frazzled day on my end! :) Bill Nichols Ireland Army Community Hospital Ft. Knox, KY knoxlib@ftknox-amedd.army.mil ================================================================================ -- Jeff Adams Language Modeling Scientist Kurzweil AI From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Mon Nov 11 13:46 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA049555162; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:46:02 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA16009; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:46:01 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA043325155; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:45:55 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id MAA00306; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:34:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: 11 Nov 1996 09:23:19 -0700 X-UIDL: 847745209.002 From: "Marc Schindler" Subject: Re: another bit of folklore To: "eyring-l@netcom.com" X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-PS 3.0.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R David Boruchowitz boruch@mail.clarityconnect.com wrote: =3DPS Wait! ALl we have to do is put someone on a scale just before = they have =3Dan astral experience! Then we could also see if their soul gained or = lost =3Dweight while it was gone. ;-)>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where's Betty Eadie when you need her! Marc A. Schindler From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Tue Nov 12 15:01 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA062586116; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:01:56 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA27300; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:01:55 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA102896107; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:01:47 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id NAA00120; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:53:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3288F218.17BC@xmission.com> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:54:32 -0700 From: "R. Kent Francis" Organization: Cybernetic Solutions Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: another bit of folklore References: <9611111117.ZM2195@pepper.kurzweil.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R > Brad Wright wrote: > While getting ready for church, I just remembered another great Mormonism & science myth I heard at least twice growing up: Physicians have noticed that the weight of a person drops slightly (maybe an oz.) at death (the implication being that a person's spirit, made of refined matter, weighs some finite amount). > > Floyd Weston in his discussion of "Death, Life's most exciting experience" recounts that the man who performed the experiment came and lectured to his class while he was attending mortition school. Sorry I don't have a more complete reference. -- R. Kent Francis, President of Cybernetic Solutions Company Home of THE SURVEY - An Opinion Research Software Tool for the PC cyberman@xmission.com or RKFrancis@aol.com or 74477.1533@compuserve.com visit our homepage at http://www.xmission.com/~cyberman From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Tue Nov 12 16:52 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA064672759; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:52:39 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA27520; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:52:34 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA230362745; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:52:25 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id PAA07929; Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:44:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:44:28 -0600 (CST) From: Robert J Woolley To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: another bit of folklore In-Reply-To: <3288F218.17BC@xmission.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, R. Kent Francis wrote: > > Floyd Weston in his discussion of "Death, Life's most exciting > experience" recounts that the man who performed the experiment came and > lectured to his class while he was attending mortition school. Sorry I > don't have a more complete reference. No need. The fact that the story comes through Floyd Weston tells one all that one needs to know about its veracity. (Which is to say, it has zilch.) From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Nov 13 16:16 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA079376970; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:16:10 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA06625; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:16:09 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA051516960; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:16:00 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id OAA19028; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:43:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 16:39:33 CST X-UIDL: 847927025.000 From: Brad Wright To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: another bit of folklore In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Nov 1996 17:06:53 -0700 Message-Id: Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R Alan, Well, although the "soul of finite mass" hypothesis can be tested *in principle*, you've pointed out many of the practical problems with designing a feasible, humane, controlled experimental protocol. However, I wonder if there might not be a subset of moribund people who would willingly participate in such an experiment (donating their soul to science?!?), agreeing, for example, to pass away on a scale without the dramatic medical interventions (e.g. those things that shock the heart back into action) that could confound the results. Of course, one major problem remains: who would fund this research? I can't imagine that any grant proposal would convince NIH or any other standard supporter of medical research to fork over the big bucks. So again, I would be surprised to learn that someone has *reliable* data on weight changes at death. Brad From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Nov 14 13:39 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA091953947; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:39:07 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA17393; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:39:07 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA168423937; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:38:57 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id MAA03402; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:29:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <328B81AD.6F1C@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:31:41 -0700 From: "ALAN C. BARTLETT" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: another bit of folklore References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R Brad Wright wrote: > > Alan, > > Well, although the "soul of finite mass" hypothesis can be tested *in > principle*, you've pointed out many of the practical problems with >designing a feasible, humane, controlled experimental protocol. >However, I wonder if there might not be a subset of moribund people who >would willingly participate in such an experiment (donating their soul >to science?!?), agreeing, for example, to pass away on a scale without >the dramatic medical interventions (e.g. those things that shock the >heart back into action) that could confound the results. > I think you are correct in supposing that there would be people willing to participate in the experiment. Heck, people will go on Jenny Jones and confess almost anything, so why not have your soul weighed in the balance. > Of course, one major problem remains: who would fund this research? I >can't imagine that any grant proposal would convince NIH or any other >standard supporter of medical research to fork over the big bucks. > Why not go to the public for support? I watched a television show where they wrote a form letter to people asking for donations to support a lawsuit by Jeffry Dahmer against the government for violating his civil right to eat people. They got pledges for several thousands of dollars from the 100 letters they sent out. We have people on this list who could convince me to donate a few bucks to find out how much a soul weighs. > So again, I would be surprised to learn that someone has *reliable* >data on weight changes at death. > > Brad I guess I would be surprised also. I would be even more surprised to find out that there was a weight gain at death, but it would be just my luck. Alan B. To: eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Subject: Re: another bit of folklore --text follows this line-- ALAN C. BARTLETT talked about going to the public for financial support to pay for spirit weighing experiments. It's amazing how close this discussion is to the one we had before on this group. And of course I predict it will end the same with no one taking the initiative to do any experiments. No wonder such urban legends thrive and discussions like this occur millions of times around the world further promoting such. I don't have faith that anything like this would demonstrate any weight change outside of what one would normally physically expect (i.e. continual decreased weight due to evaporation...) so no motivation to donate money or effort because of this from me. I'd rather spend my money and effort on real scientific study of the mind which is continually making phenomenal progress towards discovery of the conscious spirit or mind and how it works. Those that would believe there might be a physical weight anomaly due to some kind of spiritual phenomenon at death tend not to trust science or fear scientific results so there will probably be no motivation to donate money or effort because of this from them. I might be motivated to donate a dollar or so if it would quiet those that promote such "folklore" but then again, even if there were solid, obvious, well documented and very repeatable scientific evidence that there was no weight anomalies it wouldn't quiet such a crowd because they seem insistent on believing what they desire regardless of reality. So, again, no motivation for support for even this reason. To me, this is the difference between true science and pseudo science (or religion?). True scientists have real faith as demonstrated by their willingness to put forth megabucks and lots of rigorous work, recording equipment, peer review and such because they have faith that such extraordinary effort will yield real results. Psuedo scientists seem to fear real scientific results and so avoid any such scientific effort, documentation (It's not secret it's sacred...), donation of research money and such altogether. Hence, we are left with urban legends (i.e. religions beliefs of the world?) for the faithless anti scientific types so they can attempt to convince themselves that they are really the ones with faith. Brent Allsop From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Nov 14 15:33 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA094400811; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:33:31 -0 700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA17763; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:33:31 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA026670800; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:33:20 -0 700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id OAA07185; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:21:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: 14 Nov 1996 15:22:22 -0700 From: "Marc Schindler" Subject: Re: another bit of folklore To: "eyring-l@netcom.com" X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-PS 3.0.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R I won't quote all of Brent's post, but I agree with him - I had been reading the proposals to do research into weight-loss at death as being tongue-in-cheek, but if people seriously think there's a real possibility of something like this, don't count me in. Didn't Joseph Smith call spiritual matter "refined"? This is pure speculation, of course, but I take that to mean that it simply isn't matter of this physical world, hence the concepts of mass and volume simply don't apply. Another example of religion "transcending", as it were, the physical world. Since science studies the physical world only, I hereby appoint myself High Court Chief Justice and declare such a proposed experiment as being ultra vires. So there... :-) Marc A. "white wig" Schindler, who's with Alan, worrying about a possible _increase_ in weight at death: after all, that halo* is made out of gold, and has got to weigh a pretty penny, n'est-ce pas? *or conversely, the iron trident... ;-) From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Nov 14 16:11 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA094783095; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:11:35 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA17864; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:11:34 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA185773083; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:11:23 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id PAA08644; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:02:13 -0800 (PST) From: Kent Francis - Cybernetic Solutions Message-Id: <199611142301.QAA24764@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: another bit of folklore To: eyring-l@netcom.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:01:57 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "Marc Schindler" at Nov 14, 96 03:22:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R > Didn't Joseph Smith call spiritual matter > "refined"? This is pure speculation, of course, but I take that to mean > that it simply isn't matter of this physical world, hence the concepts > of mass and volume simply don't apply. Another example of religion > "transcending", as it were, the physical world. Since science studies > the physical world only, > > Marc A. "white wig" Schindler, who's with Alan, worrying about a possible I mentioned a week ago the concept that the spirit/ matter duality might be explained by the world of quarks and leptons in which case science is in fact "transcending" itself into the world of religion {8^). -- R. Kent Francis, President of Cybernetic Solutions 1(801)966-0999 Home of THE SURVEY - An Opinion Research Software Tool for the PC cyberman@xmission.com RKFrancis@aol.com 74477.1533@compuserve.com From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Nov 14 16:57 MST 1996 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA095185850; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:57:30 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA18037; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:57:29 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA064465838; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:57:18 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id PAA10693; Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:51:41 -0800 (PST) From: Kent Francis - Cybernetic Solutions Message-Id: <199611142351.QAA07912@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: another bit of folklore To: eyring-l@netcom.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:51:22 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199611142212.AA093139525@raptor.fc.hp.com> from "Brent Allsop" at Nov 14, 96 03:12:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R If we are made up of quarks and leptons then let me do a little rough math along with the assumption of a lepton called the "spiritron" so as not to have to identify it with one of the known leptons: electron mass = 1 up quarks = 2 charge 2/3 down quarks = 6 charge -1/3 then a neutron mass (UDD) is 12 a proton mass (UUD) is 10 roughly 3% of a person's body mass would be electron mass If the "spiritron" had a one to one correspondence with electrons in the body then a 200# person would have about 8-16# of electrons. If a "spiritron" is made up of a "free electron" on a sampling basis or if the spirit were made of right-handed neutrinos (actually only left-handed ones are observed in nature) with a mass of less than .00012 e then the "spirit" would weigh .02 oz. The point of all these assumptions is to come to a believablility (hi-low) fudge factor that could allow one to believe that a "spirit" could weigh something like a 1/3 oz. and be measurable on a sensitive scale. I await the postulating of other scientists on the forum who might have a better theory {8^). -- R. Kent Francis, President of Cybernetic Solutions 1(801)966-0999 Home of THE SURVEY - An Opinion Research Software Tool for the PC cyberman@xmission.com RKFrancis@aol.com 74477.1533@compuserve.com From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Tue May 13 09:50 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA101398623; Tue, 13 May 1997 09:50:23 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA26963; Tue, 13 May 1997 09:50:20 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA269878323; Tue, 13 May 1997 09:45:23 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id IAA26748; Tue, 13 May 1997 08:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:40:44 MST/MDT X-UIDL: 863538891.000 From: jonesse@astro.byu.edu To: eyring-l@netcom.com Message-Id: <009B4262.8E2B9D89.3@physc1.byu.edu> Subject: Re: FW: BOUNCE eyring-l: Non-member submission from [jonesse@astro.by Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R Bob W asked of the "weighing the spirit" expt.: "How do you exclude ... water vapor loss...?" This is, of course, a prime concern of the expts. The container must be light-weight, yet impermeable to water vapor (and other gases). We are currently using _sealed_ plastic bags, sealed using a heat-sealer after the insects are placed in the bag. Then we use liquid N2 (rather than microwaves, etc.) to cause demise -- avoiding heating as much as possible. We will try different types of plastic bags, so that at least permeabilities will differ -- and check whether this affects results. Each experiment is completed in about 1/2 hour, so there is not much time for vapor loss, but this must nevertheless be checked. We also check the room temperature and atmospheric pressure, to exclude buoyancy effects. --Steve J. To: eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Subject: Live/Present Spirit Weight --text follows this line-- Steve Jones, It's great to see you performing this experiment on dying insects. Thank you for keeping us updated. Though I'm a bit of a sceptic towards the possibility, I'm anxiously awaiting your results. I guess I haven't had the same results as you as far as church stuff being very scientifically reliable in this way. Such experiments, to me, seem a little like giving a random chemical to a person for a few months and then testing them to see if they are smarter. Such, by a small chance, might produce measurable results, but even if it did it doesn't tell us what or why it does what it does. If there is truly some spiritual matter that has weight that is able to escape from the sealed bag, or whatever, upon death, there must be a large amount of causal information traveling to and from this substance within the brain during conscious life. It is my bet that it is the neural biologist and such examining the brain in a much more precise way which will give us the real discovery of what this spiritual substance is, whether or not it has weight, and so on and so forth. Since so much causal information traveling back and forth to the spirit must be involved it can't be all that difficult to physically discover this interface flow process. Should your experiments conclusively demonstrate something like you are looking for this would definitely have some kind of effect on what the neuro biologists and such are looking for and ultimately help them. But it is their discoveries that I think we are ultimately looking and hoping for. Knowing whether or not weight or mass is involved is one attribute. But I want to know a lot more about spiritual stuff and it's attributes and phenomenal laws than just this. I want to know how it represents information. I want to know why it is so phenomenal and glorious and emotional like it is... Why does salt taste just the way it does?... Why does love feel so glorious?.... How much more of this kind of stuff is there that no earth being has yet experienced...? What is it like to be a bat...? How do I experience such...? How do I grow my spirit to be all knowing...? Can spirit be developed and grow without all this slow and frustrating suffering...? And on and on and on... I believe the things we have discovered to date clearly show that we will discover all this early in the next century. I look forward to the day when we understand, manipulate, and utilize spiritual stuff like we now do with physical stuff. This discovery will be the most significant made by mankind. When this descovery is made, this spiritual veil rent, and we can objectively accomplish such spiritual or conscious observations and manipulations, the world will never be the same don't you agree? Continue to keep us updated on your work! Brent Allsop From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Tue May 13 13:13 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA105450826; Tue, 13 May 1997 13:13:46 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA29618; Tue, 13 May 1997 13:13:45 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA111250565; Tue, 13 May 1997 13:09:25 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id KAA28783; Tue, 13 May 1997 10:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:26:22 -0500 (CDT) X-UIDL: 863551401.000 From: Robert J Woolley To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Live/Present Spirit Weight In-Reply-To: <199705131650.AA103052254@raptor.fc.hp.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R On Tue, 13 May 1997, Brent Allsop wrote: > ultimately looking and hoping for. Knowing whether or not weight or > mass is involved is one attribute. But I want to know a lot more > about spiritual stuff and it's attributes and phenomenal laws than > just this. I want to know how it represents information. I want to > know why it is so phenomenal and glorious and emotional like it is... > Why does salt taste just the way it does?... Why does love feel so > glorious?.... How much more of this kind of stuff is there that no > earth being has yet experienced...? What is it like to be a bat...? > How do I experience such...? How do I grow my spirit to be all > knowing...? Can spirit be developed and grow without all this slow > and frustrating suffering...? And on and on and on... > Why is the spirit subject to the force of gravity but not to the liquid nitrogen? Are the spirits of obese people heavier than the spirits of thin people? So many questions! From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Tue May 13 16:43 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA107563399; Tue, 13 May 1997 16:43:19 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA04756; Tue, 13 May 1997 16:43:18 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA292163138; Tue, 13 May 1997 16:38:58 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id PAA01663; Tue, 13 May 1997 15:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:37:58 MST/MDT From: jonesse@astro.byu.edu To: eyring-l@netcom.com Cc: jonesse@astro.byu.edu Message-Id: <009B4344.7A96E00B.5@physc1.byu.edu> Subject: More on search for mass associated with living things Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R PROPOSED EXPERIMENT TO SEARCH FOR A FORM OF MISSING MATTER ASSOCIATED WITH LIVING ORGANISMS Steven E. Jones, John Madsen, Coulter Paulsen Department of Physics and Astronomy Brigham Young University November 4, 1996 (updated from S.E. Jones' 1994 draft-proposal) "Recent observations...have produced compelling evidence that at least 90 percent of the matter in the universe, and perhaps as much as 99 percent, is not radiating at any wavelength. This dark matter, invisible in the optical, ultraviolet, X-ray, gamma-ray, infrared, and radio regions of the spectrum, is detected by its gravitational attraction on the matter which we can see." "Whatever the solution to the mystery of the dark matter, it seems clear that it will cause a revolution in our understanding of the universe. ... Their map [of Geller, Huchra, and de Lapparent] suggests that he universe can be likened to a foamy bubble bath. It is mostly filled with empty spaces or voids, corresponding to the inside of the soap bubblwes. The voids range from 60 million to 150 million light-years in diameter. They contain few galaxies. Are the voids almost empty? ... In summary, there is no evidence for significant amounts of dim galaxies or gas in the intergalactic voids." W. Tucker and K. Tucker, "The Dark Matter: The quest for the mass hidden in our universe." "The deepening mystery of the missing mass, [John Bahcall] said, is 'the most fundamental problem that we have in astronomy today, and certainly the most vexing problem that we have in particle physics. ...Since the 1930's, scientists have collected what they call 'incontrovertible' evidence that all visible celestial objects - - stars, planets, galaxies, etc. -- must exist in a sea of invisible matter. Astonomers detected its presence by measuring the influence of its gravity on visible objects objects. Studying the motions of stars near the central disk of the Milky Way, Earth's home galaxy, they calculated that the amount of gravitational force in play there was much greater than what could be accounted for by visible stars and gas. Looking farther out, to clusters of galaxies, they found that objects they could see accounted for only 10 percent of the gravity requuired to bind the galaxies together. ... Hoping that Hubble's keenness of vision would make dark matter reveal itself, Bahcall's team looked in random regions around the Milky Way for red stars 100 times dimmer than those that could be detected from the ground. In a patch of sky where the team had expected (based on theories of star formation) to see seven of the faintest, least massive type of red dwarfs, 'we saw zero,' Bahcall said. ... The Hubble observations show that dim red stars account for no more than 6 percent of the mass in the Milky Way halo, and no more than 15 percent of the mass in the central disk. "'We had expected 'wall-to-wall' faint red stars. That's why the image astonished us when we first saw it -- because of the stars that are missing' [said Francesco Paresce]." "'This is very exciting,' said theoretical astrophysicist David Schramm of the University of Chicago, co-author of a book on dark matter. The findings represent a tilt 'toward weird exotic stuff,' and imply 'that it's all around us right now.'" [K. Sawyer, "Hubble images deepen the mystery of 'missing' matter", Washington Post, Nov. 16, 1994] "The superstring theory ... allows for the possibility of another form of matter, called 'shadow matter.' ... The only connection between the world of shadow matter and the world as we know it would be through the gravitational field of shadow matter. ... It is akin to the notion of a parallel universe that penetrates our universe but does not interact with it. ...Until a way can be found to test the predictions of these shadow universes with shadow microphysics they really can't be considered to constitute a scientific hypothesis because they lack the central element of such a hypothesis: testability." W. Tucker and K. Tucker, "The Dark Matter: The quest for the mass hidden in our universe." N.b.: I learned about 'shadow matter' after I had formulated the hypothesis given below; the concept lends scientific credibility to the proposed experiments. We propose as a hypothesis to be tested by rigorous means, that there is gravitational mass associated with living organisms, which mass can be detected as a loss of weight as the organism dies. A laboratory verification of mass associated with living entities would provide at least one type of mass currently "missing" in scientific theories. Such a demonstration would have far-reaching implications regarding life and the nature of the universe. And the hypothesis can be tested scientifically with available tools. It is reasonable to suppose that mass associated with life would be found near the galaxy clusters where life could exist, not in the intergalactic voids. Astrophysical observations show that the missing or dark matter is indeed concentrated in galaxies -- hence the term "halo" matter. This dark matter is evidently absent in the huge intergalactic voids. These facts further motivate our study. Previous work: There have been preliminary experiments along the lines suggested here, but these were done with outdated instruments on humans and are inclusive. For instance: "Charles II of England, who was an amateur anatomist, attempted to determine whether the human soul has weight by having the body of a prisoner weighed before and after execution. Those in charge of the experiment reported that the body actually weighed less after the departure of the spirit. The experiment, of course, is merely a curiosity without scientific value." (G.W. Stimpson, Fascinating facts , NJ: Wings Books, 1992 edition.) From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Tue May 13 23:40 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA110438399; Tue, 13 May 1997 23:39:59 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA06554; Tue, 13 May 1997 23:39:59 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA132128139; Tue, 13 May 1997 23:35:39 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id WAA21085; Tue, 13 May 1997 22:35:56 -0700 (PDT) X-UIDL: 863588597.000 From: yakovlev@juno.com To: eyring-l@netcom.com Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:16:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Live/Present Spirit Weight Message-Id: <19970513.172121.4646.3.yakovlev@juno.com> References: <199705131650.AA103052254@raptor.fc.hp.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.22 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-17 Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: RO Okay, I've got a lot of significantly simpler questions on this topic. 1.) If this is supposed to be a sealed experiment, meaning that nothing that is matter can get out, then how is spirit matter going to escape? 2.) Why doesn't whatever it is that allows spirit matter to escape allow normal matter to escape also? 3.) Assuming that there is an actual drop in weight is observed, could there be some part of being alive that is causing a higher weight to be recorded? (Something like an electrical attraction to a metal scale or a temporary particle that has mass and is somehow used in the normal life processes but would cease to be created after death) GREG From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed May 14 17:55 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA130884126; Wed, 14 May 1997 17:55:26 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA18994; Wed, 14 May 1997 17:55:21 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA106743861; Wed, 14 May 1997 17:51:01 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id QAA28186; Wed, 14 May 1997 16:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:07:13 MST/MDT X-UIDL: 863654598.001 From: jonesse@astro.byu.edu To: eyring-l@netcom.com Message-Id: <009B43DF.706E6686.81@physc1.byu.edu> Subject: Re: Live/Present Spirit Weight Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R Greg asks how spirit matter can escape from a sealed container -- indeed this is part of the hypothesis we are testing. If there is no change in mass coincident with demise then it could be that the spirit is trapped, or that there is no spirit. If there is a change in mass even though all "visible" matter is trapped, then the situation is more interesting. Our measurement is also to determine whether there is a delta-mass associated with death; we cannot say for sure that this change is due to a "spirit", although it is this notion which motivates the hypothesis. From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu May 15 16:15 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA144674513; Thu, 15 May 1997 16:15:14 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA02672; Thu, 15 May 1997 16:15:04 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA009194242; Thu, 15 May 1997 16:10:42 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id PAA27761; Thu, 15 May 1997 15:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970515221326.006a28e4@pop3.sciencemedia.com> X-Sender: don@pop3.sciencemedia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:13:26 -0700 To: eyring-l@netcom.com From: Don Mackay Subject: Re: FW: BOUNCE eyring-l: Non-member submission from [jonesse@astro.by Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R At 01:40 PM 5/12/97 MST/MDT, you wrote: > The container must be >light-weight, yet impermeable to water vapor (and other gases). We are >currently using _sealed_ plastic bags, sealed using a heat-sealer after the >insects are placed in the bag. Then we use liquid N2 (rather than microwaves, >etc.) to cause demise -- avoiding heating as much as possible. >We will try different types of plastic bags, so that at least permeabilities >will differ -- and check whether this affects results. Each experiment is >completed in about 1/2 hour, so there is not much time for vapor loss, but >this must nevertheless be checked. We also check the room temperature and >atmospheric pressure, to exclude buoyancy effects. >--Steve J. > What are the controls? Do you repeat the experiment with dead crickets to show that they don't lose mass under the same conditions? -------------------------- Don Mackay Editor, Chemistry Division ScienceMedia, Inc. San Diego, CA don@sciencemedia.com -------------------------- From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu May 15 17:07 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA145697668; Thu, 15 May 1997 17:07:48 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA02942; Thu, 15 May 1997 17:07:47 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA204717405; Thu, 15 May 1997 17:03:26 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id QAA12090; Thu, 15 May 1997 16:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:00:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Janet Brigham Subject: Re: FW: BOUNCE eyring-l: Non-member submission from [jonesse@astro.by To: eyring-l@netcom.com Message-Id: <01IIWQNVBC1I984O1F@vms.cis.pitt.edu> X-Envelope-To: eyring-l@netcom.com X-Vms-To: IN%"eyring-l@netcom.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R Re the bugs-in-a-bag experiment...you could use mosquitos, and then you'd know what happens to EVIL spirits. Janet From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu May 15 19:43 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA146077031; Thu, 15 May 1997 19:43:51 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA06555; Thu, 15 May 1997 19:43:50 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA192706769; Thu, 15 May 1997 19:39:29 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id SAA29327; Thu, 15 May 1997 18:39:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert J. Woolley" To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: FW: BOUNCE eyring-l: Non-member submission from [jonesse@astro.by Message-Id: <337bbab0372f006@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 15 May 97 20:38:56 -0500 Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R In message writes: > > Re the bugs-in-a-bag experiment...you could use mosquitos, and then you'd > know what happens to EVIL spirits. > > Janet Wouldn't work. Mosquitos have no souls. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Woolley St. Paul, Minnesota "Obese people and those desiring to lose weight should perform hard work before food. Meals should be taken after exertion and while still panting from fatigue and with no other refreshment before meals except only wine, diluted and slightly cold. Their meals should be prepared with sesame or seasoning and other similar substances and be of a fatty nature as people get thus satiated with little food. They should, moreover, eat only once a day and take no baths and sleep on a hard bed and walk naked as long as possible." --Hippocrates From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu May 15 20:00 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA146138018; Thu, 15 May 1997 20:00:18 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA06594; Thu, 15 May 1997 20:00:17 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA212487756; Thu, 15 May 1997 19:55:56 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id SAA03205; Thu, 15 May 1997 18:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:58:40 -0500 (CDT) From: H Preston Bissell To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: FW: BOUNCE eyring-l: Non-member submission from [jonesse@astro.by In-Reply-To: <337bbab0372f006@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R On Thu, 15 May 1997, Robert J. Woolley wrote: > In message writes: > > > > Re the bugs-in-a-bag experiment...you could use mosquitos, and then you'd > > know what happens to EVIL spirits. > > > > Janet > > Wouldn't work. Mosquitos have no souls. > The question remains: Why didn't Noah swat those two little soulless buggers when he had the chance? HPB From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri May 16 08:26 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA148722803; Fri, 16 May 1997 08:26:43 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA18363; Fri, 16 May 1997 08:26:42 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA160582540; Fri, 16 May 1997 08:22:20 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id HAA00233; Fri, 16 May 1997 07:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:18:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Gordon Banks To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Live/Present Spirit Weight In-Reply-To: <009B43DF.706E6686.81@physc1.byu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R On Wed, 14 May 1997 jonesse@astro.byu.edu wrote: > > Greg asks how spirit matter can escape from a sealed container -- > indeed this is part of the hypothesis we are testing. If there is no change > in mass coincident with demise then it could be that the spirit is trapped, > or that there is no spirit. If there is a change in mass even though all > "visible" matter is trapped, then the situation is more interesting. > If spirit matter doesn't interact with the glass container, maybe it doesn't interact with the scale either. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gordon Banks N3JXP |"We must believe in free will. http://www.pitt.edu/~gebanks | We have no choice!" -- Isaac Beshevis Singer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri May 16 18:37 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA159299453; Fri, 16 May 1997 18:37:33 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA29319; Fri, 16 May 1997 18:37:29 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA131349187; Fri, 16 May 1997 18:33:07 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id RAA08940; Fri, 16 May 1997 17:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:31:36 MST/MDT X-UIDL: 863829802.000 From: jonesse@astro.byu.edu To: eyring-l@netcom.com Message-Id: <009B457D.8F1E3A7E.87@physc1.byu.edu> Subject: Re: FW: BOUNCE eyring-l: Non-member submission from [jonesse@astro.by Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: RO Don Mackay asks about controls, e.g. dead crickets. This is precisely what we have used for controls -- weigh the crickets (&ants) live, dip 'em in LN2, warm to room temp. and re-weigh. Then we repeat the process. What we're still puzzling over is that there seems to be a large drop the first time, and a smaller but significant drop the second time through. I think they were good 'n dead the first time... We also used wet cotton in a sealed plastic bag as a control -- no noticeable weight drop after LN2-dipping. P.s., the % drop for ants was greater than for crickets, for what it's worth. The student running these expts. is gone for the summer, so don't hold your breath for more data (till Fall). The interpretation is still up in the air, perhaps I should admit, pie in the sky ;-). --Steve P.s. No, Janet, we haven't tried mosquitoes yet. I'm still trying to get them off my windshield. Never sent this: Steven E. Jones, John Madsen, Coulter Paulsen propose: > We propose as a hypothesis to be tested by rigorous means, that > there is gravitational mass associated with living organisms, which > mass can be detected as a loss of weight as the organism dies. Woow, very intersting. But Thinking about this hurts my mind. What is "death" anyway. Neurons die every day. Parts of the biological functions of cells can be reproduced without cells right? Even some of the biological functions continue to operate in some cells hours and days after a person's hart stops right? Does our dark mass change with every neuron or cell that dies? Do living neurons have more "dark mass" than other cells? As cells are lowered in temperature does the mass escape gradually or quantitatively... Some organisms can be frozen and restored to life when thawed. Does their "dark mass" change while frozen? What of a child that has been under freezing water for more than 20 minutes. What of organisms that can be dehydrated and restored to life when rehydrated like Fairy Shrimp? What about when we sleep or dream? What about conception? Does the dark mass of a person grow smoothly as their cell count increases or is it quantitative? If we are somehow able to define death and find a correspondence with weight loss all these questions should be quickly discoverable with currently available tools right? Steve, is there any other information about or references to previous work on this topic? I've always wanted to create a FAQ on this topic for eyring-l since it has come up many times. Brent Allsop From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri May 30 07:50 MDT 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA015730232; Fri, 30 May 1997 07:50:32 -0600 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA20006; Fri, 30 May 1997 07:50:31 -0600 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA295420228; Fri, 30 May 1997 07:50:28 -0600 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id GAA24928; Fri, 30 May 1997 06:44:56 -0700 (PDT) X-UIDL: 865000472.000 From: bwright@midway.uchicago.edu X-Sender: bwright@acs-popmail.uchicago.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:43:18 -0500 To: eyring-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Live/Present Spirit Weight Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: RO Here's a message I wrote a couple of weeks ago, but never got around to sending (which is why it will seem a little out of place)... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been following this thread with great interest, in part because of the tension it's creating between two personal paradigms: Mormon/spritual and scientific/materialist. On one hand, I firmly believe in the reality of spiritual plane (a "spirit world") beyond the conventionally observable world, and in the existence of "souls" that not only inhabit that plane, but also our own bodies. I fully expect that when I die, my spirit will rise up from my body and continue on, just as I've been taught in church and as I've read in NDE accounts. In addition, it's always seemed intuitively reasonable that our spirits are in fact material beings, as opposed to beings of "mere" energy or some other "immaterial" substance. It's hard for me to imagine that an immaterial being would have the properties one would expect a personal spirit to have, such as stickiness (i.e. the ability to remain glued to a material body and to maintain its own form) and structural complexity. So why shouldn't a soul have mass? Wouldn't any discrete quantity of matter have an observable weight, given a suitably sensitive scale? On the other hand, the biologist in me is uncomfortable with the proposal to determine weight changes at death. In no particular order, here are some of my concerns relevant to the proposed study: 1. If the investigators plan on submitting the proposal to a funding agency, they had better make it absolutely clear not only what hypothesis they intend to test (that weight changes abruptly at death), but also why they would expect that outcome, possible sources of error, controls, alternative explanations, etc. In other words, they should be completely scientific about it, and be prepared (even eager) to reject the hypothesis. After all, if discrete weight changes in sealed containers *are* observed, the explanation that *mass* is being lost via some hitherto unknown mechanism would be truly extraordinary, even revolutionary. And as HPB has reminded us, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. 2. Assuming the spirit of a cricket does in fact have mass and its weight can be determined experimentally, one is left wondering what strange sort of matter experiences gravity (as we would, of course, expect) and has enough mass to be detected with a scale, but is unaffected by a bath in liquid N, and passes through sealed containers. In fact, we seem to believe that, although a spirit remains firmly attached to its body throughout life, perhaps even necessarily to sustain life, a disembodied spirit has no problem penetrating any physical barrier. Could any known type or organization of matter possibly possess these properties? 3. Why crickets? Are the investigators assuming that all forms of life have spirits? What would they expect to see with plants? Mushrooms? Earthworms? Comb jellies? Bacterial mats? And I wonder if the assumption is that organisms actually *require* a spirit for life (an unlikely proposition from the point of view of the modern biologist, who can manipulate life's basic elements like tinker toys) or that every organism simply happens to have a spirit during life. In short, although I'm convinced that some part of our identity is eternal, I'm also struck by how absurd (or at least indefensible) this idea seems from the perspective of modern science. I look forward to the outcome of Dr. Jones et al.'s study. Brad From owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Mon Nov 10 07:40 MST 1997 Received: from swttools.fc.hp.com by raptor.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.18/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA282862845; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:40:45 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from hpfcla.fc.hp.com by swttools.fc.hp.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA16896; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:40:44 -0700 Received: from majordomo.netcom.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.20/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA125532844; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:40:44 -0700 Received: by majordomo.netcom.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/(NETCOM MLS v1.01)) id GAA12620; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:36:31 -0800 (PST) To: eyring-l@netcom.com Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:32:34 -0600 Subject: Dark matter Brent, you may be interested Message-Id: <19971110.083416.10222.9.ctcox@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.46 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 6-7,10-12 X-UIDL: 879173051.000 From: ctcox@juno.com (Carl T Cox) Sender: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Errors-To: owner-eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eyring-l@netcom.com Status: R Until recently, I hadn't paid much attention to Dark Matter. I had naively assumed that it was like the planets that don't shine, or the dust (Hydrogen ?) clouds. Now I find that it is supposed to be matter that cannot be detected by our instruments, although it could be passing through us all the time. An article in a 4 year old Smithsonian magazine (the latest one in my Drs office) went into great detail on the matter and the attempts to find it. Some of those who have reported what the Spirit World is like describe it as much more extensive that our physical world. Could the dark matter be the spirit world? Carl Cox ctcox@juno.com To: eyring-l@majordomo.netcom.com Subject: Re: Dark matter Brent, you may be interested --text follows this line-- Carl Cox , Yes, I'm very interested in stuff like this. Dr. Jones, et all at BYU have done some work along these lines. In fact he posted a proposal for more work along these lines here in eyring-l. This was back in May, before the archive was running so I'll include the entire thing bellow for everyone that hasn't seen it and to get it archived. I hope Dr. Jones Doesn't mind. But, anyway, some of the stuff he is proposing has lots of problems before anything like this can become any kind of useful observable science. It's a huge, almost absurd, long shot! But at least someone like Dr. Jones has enough faith to make an attempt to search for something like this. He is willing to do the work in spite of the much more likely chance that it will disprove once and forever such a theory and quite all the proponents of such. Such a chance of being wrong seems to discourage most people that think they want to believe in such theories from doing any such work. But, not Dr. Jones. Though I don't share his faith for this particular theory, I cheer for his real work and scientific effort and look forward to any possible results he could come up with. Brent Allsop ======================================================